[This question was cut from the video-interview]
Anna Di Lellio: What was the most difficult time for you in these 14 years? You, you started in 2003?
Jolyon Naegele: So, in March 2004 that was the most unpleasant time, that was two and a half days, because there was shooting in the streets, there was ransacking of the, the flats of the UNMIK staff, people were getting killed. The March riots in 2004 were disturbing, deeply disturbing hmm…. from UNMIK’s perspective, everything they had been working for, for years, standards before status, getting people to understand what had to be done in order for Kosovo to impress the international community sufficiently to say, “Yes, okay, let’s move on… and resolve Kosovo’s status,” all that was just flushed down the drain with a series of incidents… the manipulation of public opinion through, through RTK, but also the print media. And, and, and the, the failure of KFOR, due to the different national… what do they call them? Not paradigms. Anyway the, the, the contingents said their own set of rules for engagement and some contingents performed extremely well and some contingents proved wholly inadequate, a lot of people got hurt and some people died.
We tend to forget just how many people were killed and under what circumstances. We also tend to forget what led up to it, didn’t just happened out of nowhere, and I don’t mean the incidents in the immediate 48 hours beforehand, but the general public mood, for which UNMIK was also, also partially to blame, but even more so… the Contact Group for not being open on already having the issue of Kosovo’s future status on the table since September 2003. But it never leaked out, because the SRSG at that time, when these talks were held in New York, and who attended the first half of the talks which was on dialogue stood up, when the second item on the agenda, Kosovo’s future status, came up, said, “That’s not part of my mandate.” Incorrectly, in my view, he should have reread 1244 but he, I assume he was told by people at DPKO, “You don’t attend that part of the meeting.” That was unwise. So that was left up to the Contacts Group, they didn’t leak and people had the impression that nothing was happening, nothing was moving forward. Not too much was spontaneous, I suspect, in March. There are still many unanswered questions. Who was behind the killing of the fifteen year old Serbian boy in Çagllavica in a drive-by shooting? That was, that then touched off the roadblocks by the Serbs on the main road between Prishtina and Ferizaj and also in the main road through Graçanica on to, to Gjilan.
That evening of the next day, the next day I think was, when the river drownings near Çabra in the Ibar of… the children. What really happened there? Who lead the crowd across the bridge to North Mitrovica into a hail of gunfire? There was a lot of madness, and there was a lot of calculation. If you look at where… the, the largest number of… clashes, serious clashes, and, and burnings of homes occurred… the specific parts of neighborhoods in Çagllavica and Fushë Kosovë, Kosovo Polje, Serb neighborhoods, there were Serb neighborhoods then, and then within a year or two were bought up by Albanian speculators, including politicians, for development. Transforming these neighborhoods either into as in Fushë Kosove, Kosovo Polje high-rise apartment buildings and commercial properties or suburban developments and commercial stores in Çagllavica. That, that paints a rather nasty picture. That this, this was not spontaneous, that this was about, in the end, speculation, kicking out the Serbs to create a situation more amenable to buying a property and making, making a fast buck as it were. Some of, some of these properties were then built over for highways but in the meantime there were politicians and others who had bought up land and then were able to sell at a significant profit, a big bought-out by the state when the highway was built to Skopje. So, so, that, that aspect, I mean, the fear aspect, of course, you’re walking out the street and there’s shooting and you can’t get home because it’s too dangerous and you have to find a substit… substitute place on the way to spend the night, that’s no fun, that’s no joke. But that’s minor comparing to people losing their lives and their homes for the speculative interests of certain people, certain individuals.
Anna Di Lellio: Yeah, more Albanian died in 2004 than Serbs?
Jolyon Naegele: Yes, yes, but look, the total number was 21 people killed, two of them, two of whom died several days afterwards. That was an elderly Serbian couple who were burned severely in their homes, and then died in the hospital subsequently. That raises another question to which I can come to. Yes, more Albanians died, but, why? Under what circumstances? They were led across the bridge into a hail of gunfire. Who led them in North Mitro, from South Mitrovica to North Mitrovica? Who wants that? Why wasn’t, why weren’t those people ever brought to justice? No one raises those questions, that’s, that’s, that’s my problem. Yes, they died but what were they thinking crossing over to the North? Did they assume that the bridge watchers who have been causing so many trouble since 1999 were simply gonna stand by and allow to walk them into it?
Sorry, and the, the guy in Novosella who was shot by an American police woman who saw him at, advancing on Novosella with his pistol out, and she said, “Put that gun down!” presumably in English, presumably he didn’t understand, but she was in uniform and he ignored her and she shot him. Well, she was an American police woman. I mean, yes, more Albanians died. Serbs who died, I don’t know how many of them died with a gun in their hands, I don’t know. The total number of deaths then 21, the total number of church properties thirty or so, 31, it’s all very, very serious. The total number of people injured is far more, the total number, we never talk about the Kosovo’s police officers, the UNMIK police officers and the the KFOR soldiers who were injured, and those numbers combined are close to 200. And when you raise that with Kosovo’s academics or politicians they make it like, “Oh, I’ve never heard of this before.” It’s been published, it’s on the internet, it’s in the UNMIK’s report at the Security Council from the, the end of April, I believe 2004 on, on the violence. It’s all there, but we only focus on, more Albanians died than Serbs. That’s really boiling it down to, that’s not the point. The point is 21 people died pointlessly. How many millions have been made as, what sort of profits have come out of, of this, incident? These two and a half day of senseless violence?
Anna Di Lellio: Yeah but, you, you are raising the bridge, there’s never been any, really law and order forces in, in North Mitrovica. There are about 1600 Albanians who had to flee, this is before your time, in 2000, when there were pogroms against Albanians. There has never been any success, that must have been, it’s frustrating I guess for everybody that there is this division there and, and the North is completely ethnically cleansed from, from the war, almost ethnically cleansed, there must have been, and, and it’s frustrating for UNMIK. How did you, how did you handle the North?
Jolyon Naegele: Well, there is an office in the North and there are offices in all the municipalities, in, in Leposaviç, Zubin Potok, and in Zveçan as well as in North Mitrovica. And they were… UNMIK was vilified by the Serbs in the North until Kosovo declared independence, at which point they made 180 degree turn and wrapped themselves up in the UN flag, hoisted the UN flag next to the Serbian flag. And then we became their great protectors, in their view. But until then, there was no love lost between us. It was as bad as the relationship subsequently was with EULEX.
Anna Di Lellio: We are talking about your most difficult moments. Which was your most difficult moment, or…
Jolyon Naegele: Oh, many.
Anna Di Lellio: …or the most frustrating activity for you as, as a UN official in these 14 years?
Jolyon Naegele: I would say that since 2011-12 at the latest, this, the mission’s raison d’être ceases to exist. 1244 has been fulfilled. Serbia is preferably capable of sitting down at the table with, with Kosovo without a UN representative present. All the items laid out in 1244 of what UNMIK tasks are have been fulfilled. What are we doing here? Why do we hear such a contradictory set of stories at every Security Council sessions, with the Russians and the Serbs, and sometimes other states that they have persuaded to speak up, describing a situation here that bears little relationship with reality? That’s frustrating, that the fact that because Resolution 1244 is open-ended UNMIK may be here for decades to come, because there’s no exit strategy, there was a false assumption, but they didn’t…. they were so worried, the Americans were so worried in ‘99 that if they, that if they allowed the Council to renew on an annual basis, at some point Milošević would persuade the Russian to someone else and it would be all over and so we’re here to stay, or they are, I am not.
Anna Di Lellio: What is the funniest, the funniest thing, the funniest moment or the funniest thing that you have done, in your experience? There must have been some…
Jolyon Naegele: That is one question I didn’t expect, fun, funniest?
Anna Di Lellio: Surreal…
Jolyon Naegele: Yeah, surreal, surreal was Ban Ki-Moon’s visit. That was surreal. We saw just yesterday I believe, how the news media covered Donald Trump flying directly from Saudi Arabia to Israel. Well it’s not too different when it comes to Ban Ki-Moon flying directly from Belgrade to Prishtina. But for reasons of weather, and there were no storms, his plane was routed via Skopje. He then had a whirlwind trip for a few hours and our protocol person had made sure everything was correct and in line with status neutrality for his meeting with president Jahjaga at, at Prishtina Airport. Immediately before his departure, and they sealed the room so that no one could meddle with it, and so then Ban Ki-Moon was brought into the room and in the meantime someone had meddled with it, and he stood in front of a portrait of Jashari, Adem Jashari on one side, and a reproduction of the Declaration of Independence on the other side, and had its photograph taken, unaware of what was going on behind him and the protocol guy nowhere, nowhere in sight apparently.
And, and all I could say was, “All the king’s horses and all the king’s men.” I mean, this was the case of Humpty Dumpty. No matter how much you prepare and try to make sure that things are gonna be the way, present it as you want to, obviously you are not on your own turf and you are going to be outsmarted. My comment about all the king’s men on Facebook provoked a (sighs), an overheated response by one politician who shan’t be named, remains nameless, but it was no longer a Facebook friend, who did not see, who saw neither the comedy nor the irony in this. Irony is a concept I am afraid to say that is not well understood by the overwhelming majority of people in this part of the world, regardless if of ethnicity of mother tongue and there was anger rather than amusement (laughs).
Anna Di Lellio: Uhm, actually you, I wanna ask you, you worked here for so long and you were making the distinction between being a journalist and being a UN official, what changed in your relationship with the locals, there are these two we categories, “internationals” and ”locals” in Kosovo, and I guess in all other missions, did anything change and how was your, how would you characterize your relationship with the locals?
Jolyon Naegele: Well the first problem was, my relat…my relationship with the locals didn’t change. I am who I am, those who knew me before accepted me for who I am. The bigger problem was with my UN colleagues who, for whom it took years and some never were able to see me as anything but a journalist who couldn’t be trusted, who was going to spill the beans one way or another. And I remember being actually taken aside within the first week or two by my supervisor, one of my supervisors, a German diplomat and said, “You’re not a journalist anymore, what you heard in that room I hope you’re not gonna say…” Why would I do that? However, that said, information is a valuable commodity in a closed society or in, in an unusual society like this one, which is under international administration and if we, we UNMIK, were to, in those days, if we were gonna be fully in the picture of what was going on, yes, in addition to reading the newspapers very carefully in between the lines, in addition to maintaining contact with politicians and their advisers, I also maintained contacts with a few journalists, though I must say extremely few, because the vast majority…they didn’t understand the basics of those days of confidentiality, and if you told them anything, your name appeared in print and everything was there, there was no way to …on background, etcetera.
But those who worked for intern… local journalists who worked for international media, yeah they, if they had a question and they weren’t gonna get a straight answer from the UNMIK Office of Public Information or whatever it was called, changed its name so many times, yeah, they could call me and I could tell them what I knew if there was something, and I could ask them questions because they had insights which I didn’t have. Particularly in, in the, during the March violence where they had people all over and I didn’t. We had people, but we weren’t getting the kind of reporting we needed because the people who were in the field were working for the Department of Civil, what was it called in those days? Pillar Two, Civil Administration, and they were very closed with their information, it went straight to the SRSG, none of them came to the Office of Political Affairs, so I really didn’t get any field reports, I didn’t know what was going on for some time in the field. I only got that through journalists contact and I told them what I was seeing within the Mission and they, they didn’t betray confidentiality or abuse the information, they worked in a perfectly responsible, mature manner.
Anna Di Lellio: Was there any instance in which you could say, “I have succeeded in doing something?” Because ok you said, “In general UNMIK fulfilled its mandate with you know, problems,” You have expressed your…
Jolyon Naegele: You know, 14 years is a very long time and the last two years there hasn’t been much opportunity. Because, what are we doing? What other responsibilities do we really have other than trying to portray ourselves as something that we no longer are? So, in recent years, no, beyond warning the UN in New York and in Prishtina that attempts to reassert ourselves in certain fields such as rule of law it’s not gonna work, that it’s misguided, it’s serving particular, special interests, the careerism of certain individuals, it is going to get very strong blowback by the government. This isn’t Mali, this isn’t Haiti, and this is a state that doesn’t wanna do anything that would in any way undermine its own sense of sovereignty. So, yeah, and I was basically shushed or ignored, but I was proven correct so that was, some sati.. satisfaction in that. I think I had much more day-to-day influence in the era of EU SRSGs than of Afghan SRSGs. Specific instances over the years, I mean it’s all, I have to go back over my notes but yes, there were cases, there were a variety of things when I was involved in dialogue, when I was involved in being on the Central Election Commission, whether I was involved in, in, in how to report issues to New York, what details to add to convey the, the full picture, what advice to give an SRSG in advance of meetings with officials here or in Belgrade or visiting officials from elsewhere, yes, certainly.
Anna Di Lellio: Obviously the UN thought that you were valuable here because you knew the place. Do you think that for a peacekeeper or someone involved in this kind of work, it is important to know the place well, or it might actually be beneficial to give a fresh, to give a fresh look?
Jolyon Naegele: It works both ways. No one, you can’t expect everyone to know, know, you have to understand the context, otherwise you’re doomed to make big mistakes. And to understand the context it means reading in, as you say in journalism, you really have to be up to date on everything that transpired in the past. You need to know the context, if you don’t know the context, if you don’t know why we’re here and why we’re still here and why we shouldn’t be here then, you may be wasting your time and the time of a lot of others. You really have to understand where we’ve come from, what we’re really trying to achieve here now and why we’re still here.
Anna Di Lellio: So, it’s not just a question of who you are, but how much you are prepared to face the situation? You are making comments about what you when you worked for different SRSG, I mean all of them, they’ve been all?
Jolyon Naegele: Seven, I worked for seven, but I didn’t work for the first three.
Anna Di Lellio: Okay, so you work for seven SRSGs, so can you tell us something about the difference, I mean what worked or what didn’t work in terms of how prepared, well prepared they were, where they were coming from to face the, this Mission which is kind of complicated?
Jolyon Naegele: Yeah, okay the, those nominated by the United States… all except the last two were, had multiple masters in their capitals, Brussels and New York. They were at times irritated but by what some perceived as micro management by New York, they were on the phone constantly with their capitals, whether was Rome or Berlin or Copenhagen or Helsinki, ehm, and with Brussels. And, that complicated matters, for them and for running the mission and for headquarters in understanding what was going on here, and getting uncomfortable with what, the material they were being fed. Kofi Annan, as Secretary General had appointed people…for, who he felt were suitable for different phases of the mission. He needed a humanitarian initially, then he needed someone with a, some sort of military background, the first it was… the first two were humanitarians, then the third Haekkerup had been Defense Minister in Denmark, then he had a National Security after 9/11 Michael Steiner, who had been German Chancellor’s National Security Advisors.
Then, Ban Ki-Moon came on the scene and we had… Oh wait, and there was still Holkeri, because, the former Prime Minister, because Kofi Annan allegedly wanted a statesman on this post after, after Steiner. But then came Ban Ki-Moon, and we saw… Jessen-Petersen, who was someone from within the UN, but UNHCR, a humanitarian who thought with his heart, also when making political decisions, which was his undoing, followed by Joachim Rücker, who was a political technocrat, former mayor, holding very senior posts in the German Foreign Ministry, who had been head of the EU reconstruction pillar so he had already had a couple of years, he did not come blindly here, just as Steiner as a deputy High Representative in Sarajevo so he also had experience in the region if not in Kosovo. Jessen-Petersen also been the head of UNHCR office in Skopje. Lamberto Zannier was an arm’s negotiator, but also had run a… an OSCE office on minorities, I think… and was a diplomat. And that was then the end of the EU interest and insistence on, on, on, on having a finger on UNMIK, or in UNMIK ,because they figured, well, you know there is EULEX and this EUSR office, so we don’t really need UNMIK anymore. Everyone made that same mistake, including the Russians when they pulled out their senior person and put him into Ahtisaari’s office. They all miscalculated that UNMIK was just going to fizzle away.
So we’ve had two Afghan SRSGs, the first, who had worked, Zarif, had worked for more than twenty years within the UN system when he started in UNMIK, so he knew the system inside and out, which has its benefits, but also potential pitfalls. And the current SRSG, also an Afghan, who was his country’s former Rep [resentative] in New York for seven years and chaired the committee on reform of the Security Council, so he knows the UN structure as well, even if he didn’t initially know how to work the system he, he does by now.
Anna Di Lellio: I wanna ask you, how well do you know Kosovo now after 14 years?
Jolyon Naegele: It’s an enigma. This is… how well? How well, based on what? I can make myself understood, my Albanian is bad because I’m in an English speaking bubble here, enough people speak English or German or Serbian or whatever. I can get by. I have had good local staff, advisers, colleagues, who have kept me in the picture as to how things function here. When I was when I first came here I traveled around a lot more, the higher up you move in a system, the more distant others below you become and you’re also told, “Look, the last thing you wanna is make friends within the, within the system.” And they are, they can keep you at arm’s distance. I found, you know I was inviting people to dinner all the time and no, and I like to cook and bake. But I wasn’t getting invited anywhere and was it because I was too intimidating for what I could produce or too intimidating intellectually or just too intimidating period (smiles), by my rank, I don’t know maybe all three, but so I felt somewhat isolated in that respect.
This is, as I put it in a speech that Holkeri delivered, back in 2003 or 4, early 2004, it is a backwater, it has been certainly in the Yugoslav era, and in the scale of things even in the region. This is a province, it’s only independent for nine years and it never had any history of Independence it doesn’t have and it’s only starting to have an internationally trained political elite. But because the politicians who really hold power have limited international experience in terms of education and do everything to keep those who have that at a certain distance (smiles) or out of the picture entirely. And that is changing but it’s, it’s changing far too slowly. There is this town versus down or “katunar” versus “qytetar” aspect that still hasn’t been overcome. I mean, one could be very snide and say, this is a republic of “katunars” but that’s, that’s not fair and that, that’s, that’s an oversimplification, but the same would be true in Serbia and Bulgaria and Montenegro and Albania and Bosnia etcetera. It’s the problem of region and it is a legacy of, it’s an Ottoman legacy, it’s a legacy of the socialist era, etcetera and growing out of that is something that takes generations, that’s something that doesn’t get resolved by UN missions, peacekeeping missions, putting things in shape in a couple of years.
Anna Di Lellio: But I have one question from a story you told me, for what I know about you is that you also know Kosovo so well, you have practically walked everywhere.
Jolyon Naegele: No, there are, there are corners of Kosovo I still haven’t hiked or even driven through, there’re not a lot, but I mean, there are places, you know. I’ve never, never taken the back roads from Lukar to, to, to Kamenica. Maybe I have, some of them, but basically back in eastern Kosovo towards the Serbian border, that terra incognita for me in part because it’s so sparsely populated and the roads until recently were really bad and I never had a reason to be there.
Anna Di Lellio: But you’ve done everything else?
Jolyon Naegele: (sighs) There are plenty of corners that I would have liked to have hiked that I haven’t gotten into mountains I would have liked, I’ve been looking at for a long time would have liked to go up that I never gone never gone up, trouble spots that I avoided so it’s not to get find myself in trouble all along the Macedonian border, east of Hani I Elezit, you know on this side of Tanushevci and the same goes for certain parts of Macedonia behind Tetovo up in the hills and those places I know where to go if I want to have a nice day out hiking. I know where the most beautiful spots in Kosovo and there’re still a few I haven’t been able to get into,because to get up to some of these you really need to plan unless you’re going to bring along a tent, because roads will not get you there, you know, you have to get, get yourself there on your own two feet, you probably can’t do the whole thing there and back in one day, and I’m not a camper at this age, so…
Anna Di Lellio: If you don’t mind something more personal, you are mentioning a wife, you have a wife?
Jolyon Naegele: Yeah, my wife, all right, well (smiles) I, I got married in 1991 to a Czech architect and we had one daughter, and we separated in 2002, the year before I came here. And when I noted that, mentioned that to my boss after, shortly after arriving he said, “Yeah, a lot of people are in the same situation you are.” And what I, years later heard, was that UNMIK really stands for Unmarried in Kosovo. So yeah, I was essentially single here for years, and that also gave me a certain insight and I still get insights into, into the lives of Kosovars, Kosovo women. And, being a foreigner is not necessarily a plus. I mean, I’ve heard many women say, “Oh, never marry a Kosovo man,” Kosovo women saying this, but I also hear, heard from one person, okay she was from, an Albanian from Southern Serbia, who said, “It would make my parents very sad.” I said, “What? I haven’t proposed anything beyond you spending the night.” And she said, “Well, I mean, they would immediately assume that we would leave and who would look after the farm, the, the house, this, that.” I said, “Well, I never raised the issue,” I mean (laughs) “I simply asked you, you want to spend the night.” Yeah, because her sister would find out and tell the parents and I, you know, this is a very closed society, with very tight family bonds and if anyone had, God forbid, found out that you were having something with an American the assumption is, it’s marriage and you move to America.
Well, I have lived out of America 36 years, so that’s, that’s one little episode but I can say I go to Pilates three to five evenings a week and sometime other than the instructor I’m the only man in the room, and the women range in age from mid 20s to late 60s. They generally, the Albanian, the Kosovo Albanian women, who make up 95% of the women, occasionally there’s some international, but the Albanian women, they either look straight through me, as if I don’t exist, regardless whether I have a ring on or not. There is… no attempt, unless they have lived for a long time abroad, particularly in the United States, then they’ll talk. I don’t think it’s a language problem, I don’t think it’s shyness, it’s just, they don’t wanna go there, I don’t know. It is just… they’re not wearing veils, they’re wearing three T-shirt’s so that (laughs) this is, you don’t have a clue, it, it’s, it’s, it’s strange experience. And yes, any West, Western, I mean, West European or East European or, or, or North American, Latin American, who goes into that environment, a female has no problem to, starting a conversation or having a conversation with me saying, “Hello,” “Goodbye.” There’s nothing, there’s no greeting, they see me coming up the street and they’re coming from the opposite direction, we’re headed to the same door, there’s no recognition acknowledgement anything. And these, these are generally intelligent women, I mean they, they, you know from the, from these chattering classes, from the ruling classes, they don’t communicate, there’s no eye contact there is nothing. I find it, I don’t find it insulting, I mean, it’s their problem, not mine. But I find it in this day and age, odd, but okay, you know, we are not in America. I don’t think that I’m that old, I’ve only been doing Pilates for four years but it’s strange. I mean, I can count the number of Albanian women with whom I’ve said anything more than, “Hello” there on the fing.. on maybe two finger… maybe one finger in four years.
Anna Di Lellio: But it’s okay, because now you’re married.
Jolyon Naegele: Yes, I’ve been saved, as we were, by an old friend whom I knew from before I started coming to Kosovo, also Czech, an ethnologist focused on the indigenous people of Siberia, Central Siberia, but who works as a, an editor in chief of a magazine on healthy alternative living, and has been here with me for the last nearly two years editing, thanks to the intermittent services of the, of IPKO, people can function from here. So my life has changed a little, and I don’t get out to hike as much as I, I used to. I am in better shape than I used to be thanks to the Pilates but she’s here with her two kids from her first marriage and so, kids of a certain age are not very good to hop in the car and spend the day, I was as a child, but they’re not anyway. So we don’t do quite as much traveling as, as I would like, but they’re happy with the international school that the kids are attending here, and I doubt they’ll get as good as education back in Prague, when we return.
Anna Di Lellio: And they’re making friends, right?
Jolyon Naegele: They’re making friends, yeah.
Anna Di Lellio: Just one last question, are you leaving now to go back to the Czech Republic, Prague, do you leave friends here?
Jolyon Naegele: Of course, of course. People I’ve worked with for 14 years who I trust, who I like, who I respect..ehm.. others who I haven’t worked with, but who I came to know since I moved here.. ehm, who I’ll miss of course, and who I’ll stay in touch with thanks to Facebook, you know. So they’ll know where I am, I’ll know where they are and If I ever am back in these parts, I’m sure we’ll see each other again. I’m not leaving Kosovo with hard feelings, I’m not, I didn’t leave the UN three weeks ago with hard feelings. I reached the mandatory retirement age for people hired before 2014 of 62, I’m out. I knew that when I got hired, I never thought I’d stay this long. All good things have to come to an end. I don’t know how many more Prishtina winters or Obiliq winters I could survive if I were to stay if I was offered to stay on till I was 65, I probably wouldn’t take it, because the winter, the air quality here is going from bad to worse, between November and February.
Anna Di Lellio: Anything else you want to add that I didn’t ask or you think it will be good to say?
Jolyon Naegele: Nothing, nothing that hits me, I’m sure as soon as I walk out of the door there will be twenty things that will occur to you and to me but… Look, this is a society that is, has been victimized through the centuries, over the last century, and continues to be, and, free elections, parties etcetera, there’s still no… party politics anywhere are problematical and Kosovo is no exception. I’m often asked, whether I’m here or in other country, “Who would you vote for, what party would you vote for?” And I, my answer is always, “I’m so glad I’m not in that position that I have to make that decision.” I’ve been asked here by people in the NGO sector who wanted to enter politics, what I thought about their founding their own party, and I, and this has been going on since I started here, and my advice was, “Find a party that’s at least close to what you think that you can work within to change things. Founding your own party is the fastest way to bankruptcy, you don’t. Unless you have the kind of money Pacolli has, you can’t afford to do that, so, think again.” And that was my advice to Enver Hoxhaj and to my surprise he chose PDK. That’s been my advice to various other people who ended up jumping on the Vetëvendosje bandwagon., If they can change it from within good luck, we haven’t even discussed Vetëvendosje, so (laughs)
Anna Di Lellio: Should we?
Jolyon Naegele: No (laughs), they, I think the less I say about them, I’m not going to say anything that a hundred other people haven’t really said before, I suspect.
Anna Di Lellio: Thank you, thank you very much for your time.
Jolyon Naegele: My pleasure.
 Katunar, literally a villager, a person who lives in a village.
 A resident of the city.
 Partia Demokratike e Kosovës – Democratic Party of Kosovo.
 Vetëvendosje – self-determination, is a radical nationalist political party that opposes foreign involvement in the country’s internal affairs, and campaigns for the sovereignty exercised by the people instead, as part of the right of self-determination.